Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

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Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Hair » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:07 pm

The story so far:

- I'm amazingly borrowing a Model D indefinitely from my uncle
- I want to control it via MIDI from my Syntecno TeeBee, which has 4 CV/Gate outs, including a 10V output for Moog Synths
- Hooked up with a 3.5mm to Cinch-Jones cable from the gate and a 3.5mm to 1/4 inch adapter for the CV, I can't get the Mini to trigger
- I've tried configuring the TeeBee to 1V/oct inverted trigger, 1V/oct normal trigger, and even 1V/hz inverted trigger for the hell of it, no luck
- When gated from the its own keyboard, the Mini will respond to CV from the TeeBee. It's a little out of tune, but I'm certain it's just a matter of adjusting the TeeBee's internal CV pots
- The Mini will gate when I manually short the 3.5mm end of the Cinch-Jones cable

The questions:

- When a Moog s-trig interface isn't seeing the ~10V it wants, will it constantly trigger or not trigger at all?
- Is it more likely that the TeeBee isn't putting out the 10V the Moog needs or that the polarity of the cable/signal is wrong? Does the polarity of an S-trig cable make a difference?
- Could it be something else?

It almost seems like the TeeBee just isn't shorting, but I have no knowledge about any possible S-trigger polarity and voltage symptoms so I can't say for sure. I guess either way this is going to be an excuse to finally get myself a multimeter, but any thoughts are appreciated.
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby snod_donkey » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:26 pm

First try just connecting the cv cable but then also short out the gate on the cinch jones con... this will be the same as holding down a key. The moog just uses 1 volt per octave scale. If you can then get pitch changes the cv and gate input are working

The gate is not 10 volt input it is switched to ground with each trigger 0 Volt, its the same as just shorting the 2 pins out
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Mooger5 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:35 pm

Yup, it requires a very simple circuit to convert from V-trig to S-trig. Maybe there are adapters for sale, but you could build one to fit the Cinch or the jack plugs.

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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Hair » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:54 pm

snod_donkey wrote:First try just connecting the cv cable but then also short out the gate on the cinch jones con... this will be the same as holding down a key.

I think that's what I meant by this:
- The Mini will gate when I manually short the 3.5mm end of the Cinch-Jones cable
When the Cinch-Jones is plugged into the Mini and I short the other end, it will play a note/trigger the envelopes. It seems like the Mini is working fine, so I'm guessing the problem is on the TeeBee side.

Only reason I mentioned 10 Volts is because I keep reading "old Moogs want 10V", the MkIII TeeBee (which is my model) even advertises that it has a 10V gate output to work with older Moog synths (the other three outs are 5V), but if S-trig is just shorting a connection, what's the significance of the 10 Volt stuff?

Mooger5 wrote:Yup, it requires a very simple circuit to convert from V-trig to S-trig. Maybe there are adapters for sale, but you could build one to fit the Cinch or the jack plugs.

Are you sure? The TeeBee is supposed to be able to switch between "normal gate" and "inverted gate" triggers. The manual specifically mentions 1V/oct + normal gate for Roland and 1V/Hz + inverted gate for Korg.

Is there much of a difference between the gate that Moog and Korg synths want? I'm trying to get the Mini to work using the 1V/oct + inverted gate setting.

Thanks for the help and sorry for all the questions :oops:
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Mooger5 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:37 pm

Go to http://www.xs4all.nl/~syntecno/files.htm and download the documentation for your version. I think the trigger outs will work with specific MIDI channels only. If it still doesn´t work, see the "Download a document explaining how to make a 10 Volt gate output. (Moog synthesizers)" file, where it says you´ll have to make the modification.
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Hair » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:18 pm

Mooger5 wrote:Go to http://www.xs4all.nl/~syntecno/files.htm and download the documentation for your version. I think the trigger outs will work with specific MIDI channels only. If it still doesn´t work, see the "Download a document explaining how to make a 10 Volt gate output. (Moog synthesizers)" file, where it says you´ll have to make the modification.


The TeeBee Mk3 is supposed to already have a 10V gate output (which is the one I'm trying), but there is a chance the previous owner changed it back to 5V or something, so I guess that's the next place I'll be looking.

As for the Gate/CV outs, you can program which MIDI channel they respond to in pairs - it's actually a pretty badass MIDI/CV converter considering it's not a standalone, it can even substitute controller for note data on the CV outs. Hopefully I can get it to work for the Mini though :?
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby snod_donkey » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:53 pm

The gate is just 0 volt - No 10 volt required

If you just have a high output then it wants converting to 0 volt like in the transistor converter. You can fit that inside one of the plugs
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Hair » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:41 am

Update:

I went and picked up a $20 digital multimeter and read the TeeBee, this is what I found:

Normal trigger: 38 mV (0.03V) with no keypress, ~12V with keypress
Inverted trigger: same as above, just, well, inverted
Resistance at "0V" (actually 38 mV): 2.4k ohms
Resistance at 12V: something way off the scale, infinite for all purposes I guess

The 38 mV seemed a little fishy to me, so I tried another gate output which measured only 0.5 mV (and goes from 0-5V) but it still didn't trigger, same resistance measurements.

I've been in contact via e-mail with Robert from Syntecno, and he mentioned there is a 1k resistor wired in series with the gate out. Since I'm seeing resistance at ~0V and the Mini wants a short, could that be what's preventing it from triggering? (I've just e-mailed Robert the same question)

While I was out, I also picked up parts to make a converter just to see if that would work (using 3.5mm female jacks instead of building it into a cable), but I wired it up incorrectly and while trying to correct it, I broke off the Base leg of the transistor so that idea will have to wait :?
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby snod_donkey » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:26 am

"The 38 mV seemed a little fishy to me, so I tried another gate output which measured only 0.5 mV (and goes from 0-5V) but it still didn't trigger, same resistance measurements"

If those 2 options for the gate trig are the only 2 then it will not work. I had the same issue triggering the mini from my Pro-one from what i can remember. It had a high output with a note held down and a low when released so the mini triggered in reverse

The option we have shown you with the transistor is what you should do as it will sort it out. If i was you i would simply do that

Why try other options to get it going when this one is what you want?
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Hair » Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:52 pm

Those aren't the only two options, I just tried 2 of the 4 different outputs (one is set to 12V, the other three are 5V) - each output can be configured for 5V (or 12V for output 4) with a key-press and 0V with no key-press, or the opposite: 5V (or 12V) with no key-press and 0V with a key-press, which is what should be working with the Moog, but it isn't - not even backwards like how you mentioned with your Pro-One.

If it isn't even triggering backwards, does that matter for the converter, could it still work? I mean, it's easy enough to make so I'll try it again when I have the chance to go out and grab another transistor, but in the meantime..

After talking a bit with Robert, my guess now is that the 1k resistor in series with the TeeBee's gate output isn't allowing it to truly short, but I'm not about to go shorting a resistor before knowing a little more about what's going on, I don't want to blow anything up :shock:

Thank you so much for your help already and for letting me yammer about all this
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Re: Problems triggering Model D from Syntecno TeeBee

Postby Hair » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:25 am

Another update, took another shot at building the converter today and got it working like a dream - thanks again for the help and dealing with my overthinking of everything :oops:

The next issue is tuning the CV output. I'm reading a perfect 1V/octave out of the TeeBee, but it's taking about 1.08V to move between octaves on the Mini. Unfortunately, it seems that when you tune the TeeBee's CV outs, you also tune the internal synth, which I use all the time, so tuning it to 1.08V/oct isn't really an option for me.

Soo my current questions are:

- can the Mini's Oscillator CV input be scaled/tuned independently from the keyboard CV? It plays in tune across it's own keyboard and I wouldn't want to put that out of tune just for the sake of sequencing
- is there such a thing as a CV amplifier that could work to scale the 1V/Oct up to ~1.08V/Oct? Maybe something like the DotCom Q125? Anything else?
- does anyone know of any plugins that can compensate for altered tunings via pitch bend? I could see this working too, but the only possibilities I've found so far are something called Scala which I can't get to work on my machine, and Lil Miss Scale Oven which is $165 :shock: and is total overkill
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