are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same wave?

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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Zamise » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:39 am

Ah OK thanks. Just trying to understand too, apologies about crazy time ;)
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Stab Frenzy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:44 am

Automatic Gainsay wrote:There are minor audible differences... but very minor. I mean, I don't actually know... I'm just going by the Minimoog. The ramp and saw sound slightly different in comparison, but almost identical without comparison.

In theory a perfect ramp and a perfect saw would generate the same harmonics and therefore sound the same, the differences come from things that introduce asymmetrical changes to the waveform, such as class A circuitry or waveshapers. I'm not sure if the MM mixer is class A but the STG mixer I have which is based on the Moog CP3 runs the negative rail at -6V which introduces artifacts which make ramps and saws sound quite different compared to just running them straight. I imagine you already know this Marc but I'm just mentioning it in case anyone else reading is interested.

It's interesting that waveforms are usually depicted as amplitude/time graphs rather than amplitude/frequency graphs which I believe do a better job of describing what you're actually hearing. I understand they're not as neat for drawing on a synth's panel next to a selector knob but for other purposes they're much more practical.
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Zamise » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:14 am

If I'm getting it correct now like you guys are saying, I can't speak much about using them as oscillators but totally huge difference I think when using the two different ones as a modulator/LFO source on amp and filter. What you guys are calling saw, reverse saw what I'm use to calling it, I think tends to be more useful for me, I use it to create more pluckier type sounds, vary the speed and I get plucky wobble basses like Noisia Split the Atom type sounds. Ramp or Fowrard saw doesn't work so great, sounds more Mobyish making a sound sort of reverse like having a long attack rate, blah unless on chordy choir stringy sounds or maybe pseudo reverse ducking/pumping effect if bpm synced. Anyhow, interesting discussion, hope I didn't ruin it too much for OP or anyone.
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby condit79 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:27 am

[/quote]
In theory a perfect ramp and a perfect saw would generate the same harmonics and therefore sound the same, the differences come from things that introduce asymmetrical changes to the waveform, such as class A circuitry or waveshapers. I'm not sure if the MM mixer is class A but the STG mixer I have which is based on the Moog CP3 runs the negative rail at -6V which introduces artifacts which make ramps and saws sound quite different compared to just running them straight. I imagine you already know this Marc but I'm just mentioning it in case anyone else reading is interested.[/quote]

Wow, that's interesting stuff to know. I also have the STG mixer and I knew it was based off of Moog circuitry, but didn't realize it introduced artifacts that affect the waves. I love all of STG's stuff, mostly because it has a very specific point of view when things are designed and Eric's so passionate about certain details when he thinks up new designs.
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Bitexion » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:06 am

Yeah, when I mix together two sawtooths 180 degrees apart from eachother, it sounds different than two sawtooths in the same phase. Sounds more gnarly and glitchy.

Singled out they sound the same.

For modulation they are totally different. Specially if you assign them to pitch modulation. In one case pitch will go slowly upwards and drop to "zero" and go back up..in the other case pitch will start high and drop slowly to "zero" and pop back to high etc.
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby pflosi » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:09 am

The Andromeda also has either saw or ramp on its VCO. Sounds nice together. As AG mentioned, it's funny that it outputs the waves inverted, see this thread for a discussion of it. We speculated that it's probably an amp or the vcf that inverts the waves, since it's correct with the filters bypassed...
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby GuyaGuy » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:20 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:.

It's interesting that waveforms are usually depicted as amplitude/time graphs rather than amplitude/frequency graphs which I believe do a better job of describing what you're actually hearing. I understand they're not as neat for drawing on a synth's panel next to a selector knob but for other purposes they're much more practical.


Interesting. Do you have an example of what waves look like as amplitude/frequency graphs?
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby rschnier » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:15 pm

Stab Frenzy wrote:In theory a perfect ramp and a perfect saw would generate the same harmonics and therefore sound the same

That is what I based my original response on... :thumbsup:
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Automatic Gainsay » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:29 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:In theory a perfect ramp and a perfect saw would generate the same harmonics and therefore sound the same, the differences come from things that introduce asymmetrical changes to the waveform, such as class A circuitry or waveshapers. I'm not sure if the MM mixer is class A but the STG mixer I have which is based on the Moog CP3 runs the negative rail at -6V which introduces artifacts which make ramps and saws sound quite different compared to just running them straight. I imagine you already know this Marc but I'm just mentioning it in case anyone else reading is interested.

I actually didn't in that detail! Great information!
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Stab Frenzy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:07 am

GuyaGuy wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:.

It's interesting that waveforms are usually depicted as amplitude/time graphs rather than amplitude/frequency graphs which I believe do a better job of describing what you're actually hearing. I understand they're not as neat for drawing on a synth's panel next to a selector knob but for other purposes they're much more practical.


Interesting. Do you have an example of what waves look like as amplitude/frequency graphs?

Basically like this:

Image
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby phesago » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:18 pm

condit79 wrote:Yeah, mixing them both together shows you that they are definitely NOT the same. It sounds super rad. I also use saw and ramp vs each other to get some crazy lfos for modulation. Reason 586 to get yourself a modular 8-)


Def love to use them as modulations. Sometimes having a ramp LFO>FILTER sounds quite nice, as long as it subtle. Sometimes the aggressive drop in the filter amount sounds quite awful.

This was a good read :thumbleft:
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby Shleed » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:22 pm

Put a saw and ramp together and the result you get isn't too off from the kind of sound you get from PWM.
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Re: are "sawtooth" and "ramp" different terms for the same w

Postby chimney chop » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:29 pm

Shleed wrote:Put a saw and ramp together and the result you get isn't too off from the kind of sound you get from PWM.

i take 2 steps sawtooth, you take 2 steps raaaaaamp. we get together its op po synths a ttract
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