Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

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Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby electro funker » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:06 pm

So,

I figured out, that I'm anoyed using hardware effects live, but I do sincerly love them in the studio. And playing live only with computer is not an option. So the question is, wich of these boxes should i go for. I considered the octatrack but the sound from the other Electron machines dosen't fit in either my mind, setup or budget.

Mainly I want it to run my main loops (I considered to do this on the computer) and small phrases that can be manipulated live. I'm doing minimal techno with inspiration from stroboscopicartefacts, Token Rec etc. So 1 or 2 bar loops matches my demands perfectly.

Since the RS's and the SU's sampling part is quite the same I can't really decide wich one to go for. The Rs7000 have the most options, and the Su700 has some bugs in the OS (And the Su700 have the coolest display) - But I don't really need another drummachine I'm quite satisfied with what I already have (xBase888, tr 606+707, suzuki rpm-40). It's mostly a live tool I'm looking for.

Hope you can give me some answers. :)

-EF
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby Hugo76 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:42 pm

Although I haven't used the SU700 extensively, I would be inclined to go for that one. There is arguably more flexible effects on the SU700 - 3 effect blocks giving access to all the various types, while on he RS7000 you have 1 block for insert effects (more types than in the SU, though), plus 1 for chorus/delay and 1 for reverb. In addition you do have the master out effects.

The RS7000 is obviously much more capable as a sequecer, but I've come to realise it is slightly cumbersome for me - things take a bit too much time.

Beware that sample loading takes a long time, maybe longer on the SU, don't know for sure
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby Hugo76 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:44 pm

Btw, there are several other options, have you considerd those? Especially the Roland SP series could suit your needs perfectly (you'd also eliminate the annoying sample loading times on the Yamaha units)
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby meatballfulton » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:01 pm

The RS7000 is like a Motif rethought as a groovebox...way overkill for what you seem to need.

For short loops, Roland SP series would be a better choice if the effects processing is enough.

Also consider an MPC of some sort.
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby n3wt15 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:06 pm

I absolutely love the Rs7000's, the effects are nice, the sequencer is one of my favorites, and a good chunk of the internal sounds are useable.
That said, for live use I hate it for its size, its HUGE, and keep that in mind if you are bringing other gear around.

The octatrack isnt really setup the same way as the other elektron gear, persoanlly I love the MD and MNM, but found the octatrack very confusing to work with at first.
the effects on the unit sound great though, and its a sampler, so it sounds like whatever you put into it.
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby Stab Frenzy » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:10 am

The Octatrack is actually exactly what you're after. It's designed to do exactly what you want to do.

The sound of the Octatrack is exactly what the samples you put into it sound like. The fx can be used to change that if you want, but there is no 'sound' of the OT to not like. It's the cleanest sampler I've ever used, which means it's clean if you want clean but if you put dirty samples in there (or resample through the fx to make something dirty) it'll faithfully recreate that dirt.

I've heard some people say they found it hard to learn but that wasn't my experience. There are a lot of things that it does so some learning is to be expected, but it's the difference between a Ferrari and a Go-Kart. More to learn but once you learn to use it the payoff is much bigger.
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby Hugo76 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:15 am

Yeah, I must say the Octatrack looks like a total killer. Elektron have several tutorials on youtube, that should be really helpful when learning to operate the machine. I'm hoping to pick it up myself this fall
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby electro funker » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:21 am

Thanks for the inputs.

The akai machines are rather tempting, but I don't need all those pads. And the roland Sp-series lacks the option of assignable outputs.

So some arrows points towards the octatrack. But the problem is that, a sampler is not simply playing out clean perfect samples, the medium will allways effect the sound in some way. I don't know how the sampling in the octatrack is doing, but the sampling in the MD is doing something to samples that I don't find interesting.
I could consider the octatrack, it should be possible to find a way around it, no machine has ever been to hard to work. The thing about the octatrack, as with all electron's other machines, is that their stepsequencer is in focus, and I don't need more step sequencers. I actually want to move away from the 16/32/etc. steps and closer to the sound it self - a rather baffling statement I know.

Has anyone tried to have the su700 and the octatrack in thier hands at the same time? Thats a bit of a wierd kombo, but could maybe work fine.
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby edfunction » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:06 am

I haven't got direct experience with the SU700 but it looks like a lot of fun and I have seen people use it well as a live machine. I personally couldn't live with slow sample times but maybe if you switch out the drive that helps somewhat (at least with disk swapping). ?? If you're working with a lot of loops and other sample material being able to connect to a computer for fast sample transmission it is going to make life a lot easier.

I'll second that the octatrack sounds like what you're after. It is very intuitive (once you learn it). I think the difficulty is overstated and largely due to the way the manual is written. I learnt much more watching the videos and reading up on forums, there are a lot of nice working methods for livening up tracks!

The step sequencer is a large part of elektron gear but I think that it is not so relevant if you are using loops mostly, that said it is very advanced and flexible when you need it to be.
I think if you are using loops primarily then it's best to have a clean sound, once you start layering lots of loops any kind of grit may get too much (imo). There are obviously many ways to change the tone of any sample later and I think this is the best way to do it. Again, this is just my approach.

I was initially a little disappointed when I first got it (octatrack) but once you have a large pool of sounds and know your way around the quirks it is very liberating. I am constantly surprised with what comes out of it and how fast the workflow is.

Sorry I can't chime in on the yamahas but the octatrack is a great live tool. Nice size for getting to gigs too!
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby Stab Frenzy » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:44 am

The machinedrum sampler is very different to the octatrack in sound, like I said before the OT is the cleanest sampler I've ever used, it's probably cleaner than the sound cards most people are using.

You don't need to use the step sequencer in the OT either, there are heaps of different modes you can trigger samples live with the trig buttons. Really, it's exactly what you're looking for, dismissing it because the company that makes it also makes something that isn't perfect for you is a bit dumb. I've owned an SP-202, SP-404sx, mpc1000, mpc2500 and the OT so I have a fair idea of the ins and outs of them all. Never had one of the yammies, they don't seem to do what I want to do.

The other great thing about the octatrack is that you can sample live and play back samples straight away. So you can sample live instruments, vocals, resample through internal or external fx while you're playing etc. it's the most hands on I've ever gotten with samples from any instrument, hardware or software.
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby edfunction » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:14 pm

One thing I should add about the Octatrack.

If you are primarily using loops, one of the most frustrating shortcomings (for me) is that there is no way to disable the time-stretch and have the loop change pitch to match the tempo (ie, like pitching a turntable).
This is a silly thing to leave out imo. No matter how great a timestretching algorithm is (octatrack's isn't amazing), it's mostly audible and unnatural sounding even on small tempo changes. I always put ableton into re-pitch mode too even though it's algorithm is pretty good, I guess I am sensitive to this.

I suppose you could try and do it by ear and a combination of pitch and rate settings but that would be tricky and not very precise. I hope for this to change in an update, it's number 1 on my wishlist.
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby somebedroomdj » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:23 pm

The SU is extremely fun, IMO, and the effects are good. I love the way this box sounds. It's the easiest sampler I've used when it comes to capturing loops on the fly, as long as your timing is good.

BUT

The load times border on what some would call "crippling" and that's IF you have the SCSI board + a zip, etc. If you can fit everything you need into one volume and have time to load it prior to your set, it might work for you. But if you have a decent sized set prepared and you would happen to crash (mine never has, but you never know), you're down for a good 5-10 minutes, easy.

If you're just looking for a killer hardware effects box that can do phrase sampling, look into an SP-808. The effects are great and it's very easy to use. Loading up a 100/250mb zip does not take long and, worse case scenario, you can run it as just an effects-thru box if all of your zips should crash or something. Oh and don't forget, IT HAS A D-BEAM!!!11!!!11! :p

And it's only fair that I mention that I've never laid hands on an Octatrack. :D
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Re: Yamaha Rs7000 vs. Su700

Postby adekoyote » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:59 pm

somebedroomdj wrote:The SU is extremely fun, IMO, and the effects are good. I love the way this box sounds. It's the easiest sampler I've used when it comes to capturing loops on the fly, as long as your timing is good.

BUT

The load times border on what some would call "crippling" and that's IF you have the SCSI board + a zip, etc. If you can fit everything you need into one volume and have time to load it prior to your set, it might work for you. But if you have a decent sized set prepared and you would happen to crash (mine never has, but you never know), you're down for a good 5-10 minutes, easy.



I use an su700(base model 68 mb Ram), rs7000 and a mc808 simultaneously. :ugeek:

I bought the mc808 first, and later got an rs7000. When I bought the su700...it annoyed me because the MC808 really spoiled me in regards to sample size ans how fast it could process the samples.

Anyhow, long story short...after a year of owning it and letting it collect dust I had an epiphany...use it for extremely short samples and loops...and accept that my working limit would be 1.44 mb.

I checked out other people's videos...but the most inspiration came how the gear seemed to have had an influence on Speedy J.

Due to my gearlist I did not need a drum machine or a sampler that used drum sounds...I see this as different because most people use the SU700 as an MPC/beatbox.

The thing is that if you can think within the design parameters of this little beast...it can sound awesome in the mix.

a) sample everything at 11k 8 bit mono...embrace the lofi in its totality.
b) if you have other gear...then use the SU700 to sample the vsts or whatever.
c) samples short be kept as short and possible.

those are the 3 rules I go by. The data bus on a SU700 is anemic. Expecting an SU700 to handle long samples well is like expecting a stegosaurus to explain quantum mechanics...so just one shots and short samples...the sample engine will be happy to handle the rest.

the OS is swift and nippy. I love how simple it is...seriously it took me 2-7 days to feel comfortable. don't expect deep editing. expect fast is your face you want it or not operations...which is different from other desktop systems.

samples get chopped so fast...and it automatically "snaps) to zero points...good for loops, but to be honest I what the waveform in a daw as I record and then I snip it down.

The sequencers metaphor is unique and cannot be found in the RS7000. in the composed loop section, loop length = 4 by default...and that equals 1 bar...so you can set that number to anything for odd time signatures...setting it to a max value of 128 gives you the max length of 32 bars...I either sequence live, or I use the RS7000 to build up my patterns. The SU700 will record multi-timbrally...so you can use a sequencer to make 16 parts and the SU700 can record via its midi input all at once. (the MC808 cannot do this, and neither can the rs7000(so far as I know)).

Once the SU700 has its composed patterns...they will loop.

This is where things get wild.

the SU700 will loop its data, but it will simultaneously move forward on a linear time line...from 0-999:1

the best way to visualize this is to see the composed loops and the auto run loops as wheels on a car...they spin and repeat spinning when you press play.

mute/unmute, roll, loop restart, and all the other parameters are recorded on this linear time....so you can use this to make simple patterns extremely complex and dynamic. You can record from the start to bar 32 and duplicate....or you can whizzle up to bar 96 and record events there...the timing it extremely tight and fun...and lends itself to improvisation.

The autoloop features are amazing for short arpeggio samples...the groove time/velocity/gate help get your sample to fit with the rest of the composition.

The principle drawbacks of the su700 is in data storage. I do not want SCSI. I want flash, usb. So I am hoping that a floppy emulator will work...but news of it working is some-what sporadic. currently I use it to hold VA synth samples...and you can build so very interesting textures with it...I guess its just how you approach it.

Its sense of time is rock-solid, and the filters and guitar amp effect can make any sample scream for blood.

I am actually going to get another. I like it that much...because the the textural grooviness of it is just that unique...it is not an average joe sampler...it articulates grooviness everywhere...but due to its 32 bar limit of composed loops, I would not recommend it for everyone. You should really like making loops and finding the beauty of changing them without losing track of what they were originally.

In closing...it seems like the topic was derailed to electron's stuff. And while that is cool(I love there stuff), the gear is pricey. You can get an SU700 for around 150-300 max...and in the right hands it has such a warm and nimble groove to it. It is a beautiful instrument...if you can accept working within certain limitations.

The following track used the SU700 to play back some synth samples... :geek:


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